SPEAKER_00 0:00

The mental load part is kind of like a snowball where it doesn't happen overnight. Like it slowly rolls down a hill and it picks up more snow and it picks up more speed until it's too big and fast and it's gotten away from you. But it started out super small, right? It started out so small you didn't even notice it. And so, you know, I think that's the hardest part about the mental load is it's just kind of like compounds over time until one day you wake up and you think, like, how did we get here? Why is this so heavy? Why am I doing so why am I buying the Mother's Day gift for my mother-in-law? You know, like it's just little things. It's all of the little things.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Hi, Huntresses. This is Top Rich to me. Where we get more comfortable talking about money and dealing with money. Brought to you by Huntress Wealth. 71% of women are investing, but only one in six feels confident about where she's headed. Huntress is the all-in-one financial app built to help you make a plan, get actionable steps, and build your wealth. Join the waitlist at HuntressWealth.com and get good with money. I am so excited for you to be here, Paige. Paige Connell is a content creator that specifically is putting content to empower women to split up the mental load. With that said, I'll let Paige introduce herself.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Hi, well, thank you so much for having me. Um, yeah, I am a working mama for kids. I talk a lot about the mental load of motherhood. Um, and I just I really like to shine a light on the realities of marriage and parenting because I think we're given a lot of advice and none of it um really dives into the nitty-gritty day-to-day logistics. And that's one of the hardest parts about navigating, at least for me, motherhood was the mental load and just all of the background stuff that's happening outside of just, you know, taking care of your kids. Um, and my goal with my content is to help women find the language to articulate what it is they're going through in marriage and motherhood. So not just to learn about the mental load, but to find the skill set to have productive conversations with their partners or friends or whoever it might be in their life they want to talk to. Um, because I think for so many of us, a lot of what we struggle with is invisible and silent. And we are afraid to speak up and or don't know quite how to explain it. And so my goal is to help people do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

I honestly don't think I knew what the term the mental load meant until I started following you maybe a year and a half ago. Um, and it was so helpful because I feel like you know what it is, but you haven't really put a name to it. And with that said, for someone who doesn't know what the mental load is, do you feel that was an adequate definition or do you want to add to that a bit?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, so I like to think about the mental load as a never-ending to-do list in your brain of everything you need to know, do, remember, plan, and manage. And the hardest thing about this list is that it's invisible and typically lives in your head. Um, and that's what makes it so hard to describe to someone. And the thing about this list is it never gets shorter, it only gets longer. You check off one thing and then you immediately add two, right? You cook dinner and you run out of salt and ketchup and you have to add them to the grocery list. And it, you know, it's constantly evolving and moving. And so that's how I think about the mental load. Obviously, there's the clinical definitions that are a little bit different, but um, yeah, it's kind of like this combination of like this mental work we're doing, this emotional labor we're doing, and how that all kind of comes together in life, not exclusive to motherhood and marriage, but often is felt um very uh heavily in parenting.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

When did the mental load become apparent to you? Yeah. Um, I don't think I had any language for the mental load until probably almost four years ago, well, after the birth of my fourth daughter, when all this kind of like came to a head. Um and I heard Eve Rodsky, the author of Fair Play, at a podcast, it was kind of like a meant uh like a light bulb went off for me. And I started reading about it a lot and learning about it and thinking about it and working on it in my marriage and in and in parenting. But if I look back, right, you know, I always felt it. I was always experiencing it. I just didn't have the language for it. You know, I always tell people it's not exclusive to parenting. I always think about um sibling dynamics, right? Um, I'm the eldest daughter, and I always think me and my sisters are constantly texting about like, what are we getting, Mom for Mother's Day? Do you have the card? Who should I? Like, we're constantly doing that. It's like, uh, and then we have one sibling where we're like, hey, we've done all this work. Can you send us, you know, X amount of dollars for mom's gift, right? It's like doing the group project, and one person takes on a lot more than the other person. It just shows up very differently. And I think um it feels relentless in parenting. Is and I think that's why as parents, you will hear them talk about it a lot because it just feels really intense.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

And how did that show up like when you had that discussion with your husband? How did that first discussion go?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

I mean, it wasn't a first discussion. You know, it's funny, we'd probably been talking about it in theory for years, right? Like having those conversations of like, hey, I'm stressed, him saying, How can I help? Me being like, oh God, like that. I don't know how to tell you how to help because there's a million things to do, right? And so then we'd end up focusing on silly things like the dishwasher or the trash, or can you fold that load of laundry? It felt like we were on this hamster wheel. We kept having the same conversation over and over and over again and never getting anywhere. But when I heard um the language the first time and like started learning about it, I didn't actually immediately go talk to my husband. I started trying to articulate it myself. I was trying to understand it. Like, what is my mental load? What is it that's stressing me out? Is it the work? Is it managing the work? Is it being the only person thinking about the work? Uh, is it being the person who has to constantly remind everyone else what they need to do and when they need to do it, and then follow up on that reminder? Like, what is it? And I really had to work through that myself. And I always tell people, I'm like, you don't have to immediately run and have a conversation with your husband or your partner. You can talk to your therapist. I probably talked to my therapist for six months, just like venting and articulating and trying to like get it out of my head before I ever talk to my husband. Um, and whether that's a best friend, a sister, your mom, right? Like I think having these conversations and practicing, kind of articulating it can be really helpful. But I probably talked to my husband about six months after I first learned about it. And it was a really intentional conversation. Like we sat down with dedicated time and we said, this is what we're talking about. Because I was at a breaking point and I said to him, I cannot continue to live like this. I can't continue to carry this. I am burnt out. I am breaking. I'm resentful, I am frustrated, I'm incredibly unhappy. We have to do something about this. And I want us to sit down and have a conversation because like this can't continue, right? So we sat down very intentionally. I always tell people, like, trying to have this conversation during dinner time or like that's not gonna be helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

And when you tell people like how to manage it, was it like create a spreadsheet? Do what's the most effective way to have that conversation?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

I always say the first thing you have to do is assess your partnership, right? Are you married to someone or in partnership with somebody who um is willing and able to have these kinds of conversations who can adapt and change and grow in your relationship, who genuinely wants you to be happy, healthy, and thriving, wants to build a strong partnership, right? Like you kind of have to ask yourself those questions. And I know that's uncomfortable for a lot of people. And that's a, you know, if your answer to that is no, then this conversation really can't happen. And not in a not in a meaningful way, right? So I I always preface that, which is you need that first. And I I had that with my husband. I knew that. Um, I I truly loved him and I knew that he wasn't doing anything intentionally to hurt me and that he would change and adapt and walk through this with me because he loved me. And we'd been together like 16 years at that point. It's like I knew who he was. Um, but for some women, they don't have that. So that's step one. You have to like assess your partnership, just like baseline. And then but the answer to that is yes, fantastic. I always encourage people to make the invisible labor really visible, first and foremost. So that can look a bunch of different ways. You can use a game like Fair Play by Eve Rodsky, which is a deck of cards. That didn't really work for my brain. I like spreadsheets. I made a spreadsheet of all the things. And so Eve's game is about a hundred tasks that typically happen in a home. You probably won't use all of them. You might have things that aren't in there. It doesn't really matter the method. What matters is that you kind of take everything that's living in your brain that you are managing and anticipating and planning for, and you put it down on paper. And I always encourage people to kind of do this for a week or two. Every little thought, we need catch up. I have to book that hotel. Oh, he's growing out of his shoes. Every little tiny thought that pops into your brain, just write it down. First and foremost, because it's incredibly validating to see all the things. And it and it paints a really clear picture. Like, of course, I'm overwhelmed. I just wrote down 400 things in a week. But what it also does is it makes it really an objective conversation, right? It's not like, well, I'm doing more. No, I'm doing more, right? It's it's okay, let's look at everything that's happening in our home, in our lives with our children and our family. Let's put it in a spreadsheet on paper, in a shared app, whatever that might be. And let's talk about how we share that fairly. The reason I liked the spreadsheet was because my husband and I, you know, we put our names in columns next to the things we did and we could tally, you know, the spreadsheet did the work for me. It's like, who has what? And at the time, Steve, I had 65 tasks and he had 15. And it was like, okay, and to your point, I work full-time, right? We have four kids, we're a busy family, but it was objectively unfair, right? I remember saying to my husband, like, I'm not trying to nag you or to tell you you're not doing enough. I'm just trying, like, I was I've been trying to show you like this is how much I'm carrying. Like, I'm the person who thinks about cutting the kids' nails, right? Like, you never think about that. You haven't ever once said we should cut their nails. It's one of those things where it's like when you see it on paper, you can start to clearly identify where you can make shifts and make changes and what it would look like for it to feel fair for your family. And that's not gonna be the same for everybody, right? What feels fair for my family is different than your family. We all have different jobs and lives and kids and you know, support systems. And so, but that is really step one. Because if you don't do that, then you're just gonna talk in like kind of kind of like hypotheticals. It's like, well, you know, like what if you took this on, right? Like it's much easier if you have this kind of concrete thing you can look at.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

I love the spreadsheet. I think that's a fantastic idea. I'm overwhelmed by the idea of making the spreadsheet, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

I'm like, ah, oh, I mean, that's work in itself. I always tell people people will say, like, it's so frustrating that I have to do work to tell my partner that I'm overburdened by work. And I'm like, I totally get that. Super frustrating, incredibly unfair. It it is. I I a hundred percent agree with that. What I asked myself at the time was, am I willing to put in this work now, this like upfront work for the long-term payoff of figuring this out? And, you know, I think for some people the answer to that question is yes. Maybe for some people the answer to that question is no. But for for me, the answer was yes. Like I'm willing to put in some hard work here. So that way I don't have to keep having fights with my husband about the dishwasher, and I don't just have to suck it up and be the person carrying the fingernail, like cutting in my brain all the time, right? Like I was willing to put in that work and it's unfair and it is all the things, but sometimes we still just have to show up and do that if we want to make it change. No, I think it's great.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

It's just funny how I'm like, can I just voice to text Siri every time I think of something, you know, and I'm like thinking of strategies to make this less overwhelming for myself and our listeners. It's like, it's a great idea. Just voice to text yourself everything and then copy and paste into a spreadsheet and have your husband do the same thing. There's definitely uh not just heterosexual partnerships and marriages, but let's just call it the primary caretaker. They oftentimes take on more of the mental load. Um, and and mostly that does fall on women um in in heterosexual relationships. So why do you think women take on more of the mental load than men?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

I think women just s take it on. I think it lands on them, right? Like, but the the reason I think that happens is it's there's many, many reasons, right? I think the way that we're conditioned in our society to show up as caregivers from a very young age, you know, people always joke about girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks and all the things. And we talk about that in regards to like gender norms, et cetera. I always think, you know, what do you do with a truck? You play with it, you fill it with dirt, right? You throw it, I don't know, like when I watch my kids with trucks, like they're just breaking them. But like they're not, you know, they're playing with a truck. What do you do with the baby? You take care of it. Like my daughter has a baby doll. She doesn't go anywhere without. She rocks it, she feeds it, she changes its diapers, she's constantly just taking care of it, right? So from a very young age, women have been conditioned to care for things, even in play. And that continues on. And we have this narrative in our society. Women are better caregivers, women are better at giving gifts, women are better at planning parties, women are better at designing homes. When in reality, we're just expected to be better, right? Like we are judged more harshly. We are expected to meet different standards than men. I always think about this conversation of like the bachelor pad. Like, we think it's totally fine for a man to live in kind of like squalor because he's single. If you walked into a woman's home that was the same, you would be concerned why she's sleeping on a mattress on the ground, right? So we have different expectations in society of how men and women should show up. Then we also have this layer of information. Like we women are constantly talking to each other about motherhood. Like I was told so much about being a mom and being a wife and marriage and motherhood before I ever was a mom. And I always ask dads, I'm like, you know, what advice were you given about being a good dad? And they tell me nothing. Nobody says anything to us until we are dads. And at that point, it's like there's still this assumption that mother's instinct, mom takes the lead. She takes the lead. Like, and I think it starts very early on in parenting. It starts very early on in pregnancy or trying to conceive, it's like who's tracking ovulation? Women, who's researching vitamins, women, who's looking for pediatricians, the women, who's going to all the doctor's appointments and the blood work and women, right? And a lot of men will kind of participate, like in a supportive way, but they're not super engaged in that. It's just not seen as something that dads do. And then when you give birth, I don't know, my experience, like I remember the nurses would come in and just say, like, mom, did the baby poop? While my husband was like holding the baby. And I'd be like, I mean, he's right there. I've been sleeping. I don't know if she I don't know. Like, ask him. He's right there, right? I'm recovering from surgery. Like, this dad can answer this question. But it's everything is directed towards women. And systemically, we have to talk about system, like the systemic barriers that we have. The fact that there's a lack of paid parental leave. And if somebody's going to take leave, it's going to the mob be the mom, even unpaid. Um, the wage gap with women, right? The fact that women are leaving the workforce in droves because there's a wage gap when they become mothers, um, lack of affordable child care, right? All of these things. I think maternity leave in particular, it's like for the first, I only got eight weeks, right? Eight weeks, I was this default caregiver for this baby. And I became the person with all the information. I went to all the doctor's appointments. I was doing all the things. And when I went back to work, somehow that stayed with me. It was like, oh, I guess I'm the doctor appointment person forever. And it's like, how did this happen? Like, uh, why? You know, it sets us up for inequities. And I don't think it's intentional, right? I don't think men show up in parenting and say, like, I'm never gonna go to the doctors. It just happened, like it slowly happens by default. And I always tell people it's the mental load part is kind of like a snowball where it doesn't happen overnight. Like it slowly rolls down a hill and it picks up more snow and it picks up more speed until it's too big and fast and it's gotten away from you. But it started out super small, right? It started out so small you didn't even notice it. And so, you know, I think that's the hardest part about the mental load is it just kind of like compounds over time until one day you wake up and you think, like, how did we get here? Why is this so heavy? Why am I doing why am I buying the Mother's Day gift for my mother-in-law? You know, like it's just little things. It's all of the little things.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, yeah. No, I I totally agree. And yes, I systemic. I mean, you're speaking to the choir. Like, sorry, I like don't even, I'm like, the choir is like, sorry, I'm like, you're preaching to the choir, the choir is here, the choir agrees. Um, and I I think one thing that's super interesting too is that yeah, we are conditioned to do this as women, right? A hundred percent. I only have boys, and then my mom gave me my old cabbage patch kit from kid from like the 80s, yeah. And my kids are like, What's that? And I was like, Oh, it's mommy's baby doll from when she was a little girl. And they're like, Oh, okay, like bye. Um, but yeah, it's conditioned for sure, it's systemic for all those reasons. But when we talk about relationships, and I think the best example I have for this is talking to a woman that's a stay-at-home mom, right? And so sometimes I think that we talk about the wage gap. Um, and I think sometimes we fall victim to, well, my husband makes more money than me, so I shouldn't do XYZ. Or in the stay-at-home mom situation, this is my job. Um, and so I need to care for all of that. But I always feel like, oh, I just want to tell you why that's not true. And I can't verbalize it. And so how do you, how do you like compensate, I guess, for that in these discussions?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

So the way I think about it is, well, I have a couple ways of thinking about it. But first and foremost, I think we live in a capitalistic society. And so a lot of us think in terms of money, right? So we think about, well, my husband makes more money. You know, we work the same hours, but he makes more money. So therefore, I feel like I should do more laundry. I should do more cooking because like I'm not contributing as much to our marriage or our family or our bills or whatever it is. Um, or there's the version where it's like, I'm not contributing any money, right? He contributes all the money and I contribute solely unpaid labor, right? Um, I always encourage people to think about marriage differently than we think about what's happening outside of the four walls of our home, which is that outside of our home, the currency is money. That's how we're paying for things, that's how we're getting paid money. Inside of our home, the currency is time. It is time. And when I say that, what I mean is no one person should have more access to free time, right? No one person should be doing exponentially more domestic labor and caregiving and spending that time in the home at uh their own detriment, right? Like when I think about time, I think about time equity. So you and your husband both work 40 hours a week. It doesn't matter how much you each make, right, at those jobs. When you're home, your time has the same exact value. It just does, right? Like I think oftentimes the person who's making more money kind of like pulls weight at home. They're like, well, my time is worth $200 outside of this house. And so it's more valuable to be doing that than it is for me to fold laundry, essentially saying, like, my time is more valuable than their time. And I always encourage people to move away from that thinking. Like, think about how your home operates and how you can build a fair share of time. So both people have time to rest, to work out, to see friends, to have hobbies, um, time for each other, right? Time to go on a date, time to spend with your children, right? How do we create a version of that that feels fair? Not equal. Equal can be nearly impossible sometimes, right? I'm in a really busy phase of my career right now. I'm traveling a lot. My husband also has a really busy job. Um, we struggle. Like sometimes he gets more, like he has more time at work. Sometimes I have more time at work. And so we're constantly re-evaluating this. But at the end of the day, we work really, really hard to make sure no one person is carrying an unfair amount of the work at the risk of their time, right? So, what a lot of stay-at-home moms will tell me is like I work 24-7, right? And yeah, my husband works full-time, but he works say even 50 hours a week. He works 50 hours a week, but he's also in a golf league on Tuesdays. And when he comes home, he goes for a bike ride. And like, I feel like he's owed that because he works so hard during the day. And we have this narrative that it's like he's owed more free time because he earns more money. And that I just think is not true and unfair within a marriage, because you should never want to buy your partner's time. If you want to outsource domestic labor, if you want to like use money to get out of doing laundry, it shouldn't be by paying your partner or taking advantage of your partner's time. You can outsource that, right? Like you can pay somebody to do that. Um, but your partner is your partner and you're with them not because they can give you unpaid labor, but because you care about them and love them and want, you know, want to build a happy life with them. And so that is how I think about that conversation, which is like when you're home and you're off the clock at work, like everybody's time is the same.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Yeah, no, I love that. And um, I've found myself in those pitfalls as I've started my own business and you know, haven't pulled a salary. And I'm like, oh, I should do more. And I'm like, no, like I can't emotionally take more on. I know that you within the past year started your business full time of content creation, speaking, and and um all of these engagements. How is that how did that affect like the equity in the relationship or your mental load, or you know, what was your personal experience when you transitioned?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, you know, something I didn't say like in the last part that I think ties to this is that oftentimes women or the default parent, but oftentimes moms, um take on more flexible jobs, right? Or or become the default parent. And and people will often say like the wage gap exists because women choose careers that are lower paying or they work fewer hours or They work remotely or right. All the reasons. Women get paid less because they choose to do X, Y, and Z. I think again, when it comes back to conditioning and these systemic barriers, a lot of women will adapt their life and their careers to accommodate family, right? Women are twice as likely to leave the workforce or change careers to accommodate for the lack of childcare than men are, even though men equally benefit from childcare, right? So women are more likely to become a consultant or go part-time or whatever it is. Women will choose more flexible jobs, remote jobs, in order to accommodate the realities of parenting, getting their kid on the bus, off the bus, whatever it might be, right? And men are less likely to do that, which also leads to this kind of like wage gap situation that exists in this whole conversation. And I was always a default parent. I was always the one with a flexible job. I never, I always thought about leaving the job that I had. I was there for 10 years. And I was always like, I would love to do something different or try something new. But I was so afraid to leave because it was the golden handcuffs of flexibility. Like it was just a flexible job and they knew who I was. And I'd worked there before I was a mom. And so I had this trust, right? And so it felt like I could never leave because who else is going to let me go to a doctor's appointment at two o'clock and not use PTO, right? Like who else is going to let me do that? Um, and so I really felt stuck. When I got laid off and I went out on my own, there was definitely this period of time where we had to like figure it out. I was like, okay, I'm still proving myself. I'm still figuring this business out. I don't really know what it looks like. And I fell into the same trap. I started taking on more at home. And I found myself in this position where I remember thinking, and I said it to my therapist, I was like, you know, I'm at home building this business. But because I'm at home and I don't work for another company and I'm my own boss, I find myself making the lunches and folding the laundry and changing the sheets and going to speech therapy three days a week and every doctor's appointment, every dentist's appointment. And my days are so fractured and I'm constantly context switching that I feel like I can't truly excel in my career because I can't sit down and just focus. And my husband gets to go to work for eight straight hours and nobody interrupts him. Like he's just there at work. And I remember being so frustrated by that because I just fell into it again by default. Like it's this great unlearning, I think that we as women are constantly doing, which is like I'm trying to unlearn this expectation that I also place on myself, like this pressure I place on myself to show up in this way. And so it's really been an adjustment. Like we've had to really work and talk and adjust and have conversations too about like, okay, right now, this month, my job is taking priority. And my husband has to step up and do more at home. And in the winter, when he works a ton of hours, his job's very weather dependent. I step up, right? And so it's we're constantly just having conversations about what it looks like to manage it together and balance it as best as possible. And I always tell people this mental load conversation, the logistics conversation, it's not a one-time conversation because life is always changing and evolving and adapting. And so we have to constantly be doing that too. One of the words that you said was unlearning.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

What are the strategies or maybe the resources that someone could use to kind of try to unlearn or unwind that conditioning of like taking it on just instinctively?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, sometimes I just like to say it out loud to myself. Like I just talk to myself. This this sounds a little silly, but like if I'm in my car and I'm feeling guilty about going on a work trip or something I'm doing, I talk to myself. And then I always ask myself, I'm like, would would a dad feel guilty about this? Would a would a man feel badly about this? If we said this out loud, like I was just joking um with my friends about like even the term like girl boss and how it's it's really weaponized, like it gets weaponized against me a lot online, which is like, oh, she talks a lot about being a working mother and like she's doing too much girl bossing, like just be home with your kids. And I'm like, nobody ever says that to men. Nobody would ever call them a boy boss or say like they need to focus more on their home. They would be like, of course a man is out there chasing his dreams. That's what men do, right? And so I talk to myself. I like have these conversations with myself. And I try to reframe it. Sometimes I always tell people, I'm like, replace the word mom with dad and see if the sentence sounds crazy. Because if the sentence sounds crazy, then maybe it is crazy, right? Like maybe it's not something, or like not crazy, but like, you know, maybe don't put that pressure on yourself. If we wouldn't say the same thing about a dad, then don't do that to yourself. Don't put that pressure on yourself. Don't take that on. I would also say, like, I've spent years in this space and I still fall into it. But like reading books about these topics, following people who talk about it online, listening to podcasts, like there's so many things you can be doing and so many women on the internet who are just helping us unlearn this, which has been so helpful for me. Like, I'm so thankful to so many people. And also there's just so much information and like data and statistics. And so sometimes when you look at it, you think, oh my gosh, like I'm not making this up. Right. I think um one version of that is to your point, you're, you know, we sign up for the PTO and all the things. But also, um, a lot of times uh feedback people give to women who are burnt out is just do less. Just do less, right? Like who cares if your kitchen is clean? Who cares if your kids are in clean clothes or whatever, right? Yeah. And there's actually research to show that women are judged more harshly, right? Like if I drop my daughters off with messy hair, I am judged more harshly than if my husband were to drop them off with messy hair because there's a standard expectation that I know how to care for them and to make sure their hair is neat, and he doesn't. And uh, they did a study um of you know, when you walked into a messy home or room and you were told it was a woman, how harshly she was judged versus if you were told it was a man, right? So, so these aren't just things that we're imagining. They are real, right? There's a reason we put this pressure on ourselves. It's not self-inflicted, usually. Um, and so I think when you start to have those conversations with yourself and kind of look into it, you think, okay, like I feel validated, but also now I can kind of reframe this conversation for myself every time it comes up and boils to the surface and say, like, hold on a second. Let me let me think through this one for a second and see if what I'm feeling is rooted in something true for me or if it's rooted in expectations that have been placed on me.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Yeah, I honestly love the reframing of ask yourself if someone said it about a dad. Um, and I think a lot, a lot of times, as women, at least anecdotally, I'm my harshest critic, um, especially when it comes to parenting, right? And we just did an interview. Well, one of my friends is the founder of Ava, which is yeah, okay. Do you know who you know what it is? I do, yeah. Okay, so Laura came on the podcast to talk about it, and she said she felt like she started Ava because she felt like she was personally failing at motherhood. And I hate that. Like, well, sorry, I love I love Laura. I love Ava. Sorry, I love the concept, but I hate that she felt that she was failing at something, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah, and I think the thing that Laura said, and she's great, I love what she's building, um, is what most women feel. It's what I felt, which is that I am personally failing. I picked the wrong partner, I didn't set the right expectations, I didn't prepare well enough, I didn't build a strong enough support system, I didn't have the right daycare during COVID, whatever, right? Like it was just constantly like, I did it wrong. I was wrong. Um, I didn't do enough. And in reality, I always tell people, especially with the mental load conversation, it is incredibly difficult to avoid these dynamics because we are set up to fall into them, right? Like just systemically, societally conditioned, like we are set up to fail when it comes to this. So when you can reframe it and look at it that way, which is like it's almost inevitable that I ended up here. This wasn't my fault. It's not my husband's fault. Like it's not our fault, but we can change it. And I think that's the powerful part, which is you can change it. And so once you can have that conversation and like recognize that you can change it. But I think so many women are afraid to speak up because there's a lot of shame and guilt and blame around it. And so you don't want to speak up and say, I'm incredibly unhappy in my marriage. And how weird does it feel to say because my husband's not unloading the dishwasher. Like that feels, I feel like I shouldn't say that out loud. Um, but that's what's that's what's on me right now, right? And so we kind of put women in this position where they feel very, very shameful for having these feelings. They feel very guilty, they feel like they did something wrong, and in reality, they didn't. And you have to be incredibly intentional in your partnership to not fall into these dynamics. And actually, there's again research to show that couples that are egalitarian prior to kids, after having kids, fall into more traditional roles. Like kids are this like catalyst in our society to say, like, this is what moms do. This is mother's work, laundry, cooking, cleaning, school emails, dot that's for moms, right? When in reality, that's just work. And any parent can do it. Yeah, being the PTA treasurer. Sorry. I mean, men say they're great at money, so why are they not doing it? I mean, I we don't have one man on our PTA. So, like, I'm like, where are they? Like, they're supposed to be so good at this.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, not Austin, uh, our PTA president is a man, but and I love that.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah, but he um anyway, sorry. To go back to what you said, I so powerful. Um I am here. I just want to say this. I don't want anyone to ever feel like they're failing at motherhood. I I really wish we could reframe that conversation so hard. Um, and going back to what you said, that's what I loved about replacing it with the dad or the man, because the reality is we get judged for wanting things. It has taken me to be the second time mom, or you know, the second having the second child and being closer to 40 than 30, to be like, actually, we are not failing at all. I just like you need to step into your power. So I want to say, like, I fully come from a place of learning and growth, but I wish someone had told me that when I was a 27-year-old mom, freaking out about all the little things, and just be like, you are good. We talked about this earlier, right? Like, boys play with trucks, um, girls play with dolls. As I mentioned, I have an 11-year-old and a five-year-old. And my 11-year-old, I've always stepped into my power of my girl power, boss band power. Um, and it's gotten to the point where now my 11-year-old is asking, like, why do you not like boys? Or like, why are you, you know, like all of the little friends at school that are girls like love you because you're all about girl power. And I was like, oh my God, am I failing my son? Because he now thinks I dislike an entire, like half of humanity will certainly love my kids and want to bring them into the fold um of growing into gentlemen that take the mental load before they before they they are not liked for it. Um, but what would you say is a way to like empower or like talk to boys to help them shift this societally, like systemically?

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah. You know, it's so funny because I'm raising a house of three girls and one boy. So we got a lot of ladies in this house. Um, and my son is the best big brother uh to them, and he's such like a cheerleader for the girls. But he he one time asked me why um women uh have a month. Why is there women's history month? Like, why is there's this month dedicated to women? And he says that feels unfair. Why do they get that? And we don't get that, right? And I'm like, yeah, good question. Like, why do they get that? I think my best advice to people in having these conversations is one, make sure it's age appropriate, right? Like that they can understand it and all that. But he and I had a lot of conversations about how, you know, peep different groups of people experience different hardships. And women live in a different world than men do and have experienced different hardships and systemic barriers that men do not experience. And that so much of the world, if we look around, is run by men, right? And so, you know, my son is uh black. Um, and we talk a lot about Black History Month and what racism is and what that looks like and what that feels like and why it's important to talk about and why we bring awareness to it, right? And he totally understands that. And so when we had this conversation, I asked him, I said, you know, why do we have Black History Month? And he was, he was telling me all the reasons we have it. And I said, Okay, well, you know, let's talk about what women have gone through, like what women go through, um, including black women, but just women in general. Like, what is it that they struggle with? What do they still go through? And for him, he was like, Oh, yeah, that makes sense, right? Like we have to be cheerleaders for people who need more support than we do, right? And so I think it's one of those things where you can have these conversations in a way that it's not girls need more than boys or that we we don't like boys. It's just that, you know, we're trying to create a world that's fair and and equitable and where no one person has to suffer for no reason, right? Um, compared to the other. And so, you know, I think it helps that he has three sisters and that he sees them in the world and and wants them to have the same thing that he has. But I think it's the way in which we talk about it with them. It's not um, you know, I have a sweatshirt that said, let let girls run everything or something like that. Um it was gifted to me. I, you know, I I but I it's a cute sweatshirt and I wear it. And he was like, why? And I'm like, well, I, you know, I was like, it's more of a silly joke, right? But um do we have a woman president? Are are the people who run our companies women? Like, let's have those conversations. Like, I think we we can and should. I'm a strong believer that we can and should have these conversations with kids in a way that is age appropriate, that does not make them feel badly. And that says, like, actually, you know what, like to my son, like you actually have so much power. Like, you have so much control of the world that your sisters get to live in. And um, how amazing to help other people have like a really great life, right? Like, how amazing is it to be able to do that and to be cheerleaders for people who need it. And so I think about it in that sense, where it's like, it's not about taking anything away from boys or men or shaming them or making it harder for them. It's just about making it better for a group of people who haven't had it as good as them, right? So um, I really think it can be a super simple conversation and how we position it. And I think if we have those conversations young, it's really not even something they think about as they get older because it's just something that they have constantly been a part of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Love that. Um, we love something that you've said that came across, I think, one of the first times we saw your post, but it was that you don't take advice from men. Um, why is that?

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yeah, I said I don't take advice from men, even the most successful men. Because even better. Because their advice does not apply to me as a woman, typically. And I have found this to be true in real life, but I also think like when we think about like a lot of the uh business books and podcasts, right? Like these, like so many of these um podcasts about work and money from a male perspective. And I found that every time I listened to a podcast or read a book or heard advice from men, it didn't include the full picture of being a woman and a mother. They didn't talk about childcare. They didn't talk about picking a kid up from a school sick, they didn't talk about childbirth or paternity leave or anything, right? They didn't, they didn't experience a sexism in the workplace, they didn't experience sexual harassment. Like everything they would say as advice, they just didn't have the full picture of what it's like to be a woman, right? And so every time a man would give me advice, I'd think, okay, we're just missing a layer here. Like it's missing your your advice doesn't apply to me as a woman because you're not speaking to me from the lived experience of a woman. You've had a different level of support and privilege and all these things. And so, yeah, it's not that I don't take any advice from men. I just I take it with a grain of salt, right? Like I'm like, okay, that's interesting. Can it be applied to life as a mother? Can it be applied to life as a woman? You know, it sparked from a podcast with Casey Neistat I was listening to, where he was talking about how he grinded it out and he really hustled to build what he built. And he had a kid the whole time and he was talking about like sleeping on people's couches. And I just thought, you can't do that with a baby. You can't go, you can't couch surf with a baby. You can't be out till 2 a.m. with a baby. Who has the baby? And obviously the answer was like the baby's mom had him, right? And so, uh, and that's not to shame Casey Neistat. That's just to say like that advice doesn't apply. I could never have done that with a kid because I had the kids, right? Like I had the children. So it's it's just so interesting. Um, there's a book I'm blanking on the name, but it's like uh somebody who cooked so and so's dinner. Uh, do you know what book that is? I'll have to find it for you if you want to look into it. But it's a it's a it's about a famous man and his success, and it's about who cooked his dinner, right? Like who was making the food, who was taking care of him, who is washing the clothes, who who was doing that work, you know. Um I think about that all of the time. Oh, I remember this one executive, uh, whether at Google, Apple, somebody who was like, I always make sure to be home on Tuesday nights by five. And I was like, Oh, how lovely. Tuesday nights by five. One night a week, he's home by five. But it's like, who's home every other night of the week? Right? Like that advice just simply wouldn't apply to a woman. And if a woman said the exact same thing, which Emma Greed is saying right now, like saying the three-hour mom message right now, the response is very, very different. Um, very, very different. And so that's why I don't take advice from men because it just doesn't apply to me.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

We've talked a lot about mental mental load. I've learned so much. I feel super empowered. Um, I just I'm ready to go build my spreadsheet. Uh, so we talk a lot about finances here, and we've seen you talk a lot about it on your page. We love it. Um, and so one thing that I think is really interesting is that women normally say of all the things on the mental load list that they will take, their finances are one that they are totally fine giving to their husband. And so just curious what your take is on how to split the mental load uh when it comes to finances and money.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yeah, you know, I have a few non-negotiables when it comes to my relationship, but I think in general, like when I talk about these things, that I think no matter how you split up the work, like I'll say, like, I don't care who does the dishes and who folds the laundry. That's up to you and your family, right? So if your husband's doing the laundry, you do the dishes, that's great. As long as everybody's happy, fantastic. Um, out of sight, out of mind, right? They don't have to think about it. Two things that are non-negotiables for me are health and money. Both people need to know what's going on health-wise with their children and their partner, date of birth, doctor, medication, specialists, all those things. I think everybody should be informed on those things because in case of an emergency, you have to know what meds your kids are on. In case of emergency, you need to know what they're allergic to, right? Like, and same thing for your partner. If something happens to your partner, you need to know that. So that's one health, important. The other is money. And the reason I say money is because money typically has been something that men have more of than women. I think about the like the original marriages, it's like there was dowries involved. Like money mattered, right? Money always matters. But money is also so incredibly important for women to understand and have access to and kind of hold the keys to. So I really do believe that to avoid any kind of risk in partnership, both people need to know what is going on with the finances. You don't have to be the person paying the bills. You know, like auto pay can be on, your partner can manage that, but you should understand the budget. You should know the logins, you should know what investments you have, 401ks, retirement, like all everything. Like you, you both need to be on the same page about that and have all of the access and information for a couple of reasons. One, women tend to be at higher risk for financial insecurity, especially in motherhood and especially stay-at-home moms, unfortunately. And we live in a society that does not um compensate unpaid labor that women are doing, the caregiving that women are doing, right? None of that. But also, you just never know what's going to happen. Your partner could pass away, unfortunately, tomorrow, become injured, disabled, whatever it is. And if you don't understand the money, if you don't have access to the money, you are at inherent risk, right? Like money is unfortunately the currency outside of our homes. And if we don't have it, we are at risk. And while we all love to believe that our partner has our best interest at heart, I really do think it's important that everybody is aware of what's going on financially within the home, um, just to avoid that risk and to feel safe and secure within your partnership. And that's gonna take different forms, you know, whether you have joint bank accounts, separate bank account, you know, that's gonna look different. But I really do think having those conversations and that clarity is really, really important and crucial. Um, and and is a non-negotiable for me.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Yeah. Um, at Huntress, we are trying to change the balance of power by influencing women have more money. We are working moms. You're a working mom. Um, and I believe personally that if I can outsource something, if I can afford it, it ultimately helps me and my husband going back to like even before we had kids, hiring a housekeeper, just like, you know, helped with our fights, et cetera, like fights over who's cleaning the toilet this weekend. Um how do you feel about money and outsourcing part of the mental load?

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah, I think outsourcing is a touchy topic because I think outsourcing is not the solution to the mental load. I think I alluded to this earlier. People often tell women, like, just don't do it or outsource it. Like it's always advice we give to women, but the things that women tend to take on, the laundry, the cooking, and the cleaning, they can be really expensive to outsource and time consuming. Whereas the things men tend to outsource, like oil changes, mowing the lawn, they're infrequent, not as expensive, right? So it's a it's a topic. But also it's it's uh something that not everybody's privileged enough to do. Not everybody has the ability to do it. So I will say I want to acknowledge that, right? Like there's a level of privilege in being able to outsource things. But if you have that, outsourcing can be an amazing tool. It's still important to talk about what that looks like because there is still a mental load to managing the work that you outsource, right? Communicating. Paying, uh buying supplies for whatever that might look like. There's still a layer of work involved. So having that conversation, but I think it can be an amazing tool and way to offload some of the work. And I think, like objectively, there is too much work for two people to do in modern life when you're working full-time taking care of kids and just the demands that we place on families. You know, the demands that we put on parents in 2026 are just so much higher than what we used to put on parents. And it you're inundated constantly with apps and emails and all the things. And so I think it's fair that people want to outsource and, you know, put put things outside of their home if they can. And so I think it's an amazing thing to do. You just have to still be really strategic about making sure that that is a shared effort and figuring out what that looks like. And also thinking about like what is the best ROI here? Like what are we outsourcing and why? Why are we outsourcing that thing? Thinking about your strengths, your weaknesses, what like do you both hate cooking dinner? Okay, then maybe dinner's the thing you outsource, right? Maybe it's not laundry. Uh laundry you can mindlessly fold while you watch TV. You know, you decide. You get to decide that. But I think outsourcing can be a really great strategy when it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

I really like that. I didn't think about all the thinking that still comes with it. So even if you outsource it, it's still part of your mental load list. Like, don't take it off your spreadsheet because someone still has to think about it and manage how that situation is going to flow through. Last but not least, what is your advice for all of the huntresses out there?

SPEAKER_00 45:27

I really want women one to reframe the situation, which is that like if you're struggling in this system and this in parenthood and in marriage, whatever it might be, um reminding yourself that you know you didn't create this. It's not your fault. You shouldn't feel shame or guilt around it. And so I really want people to take that advice away from this episode, which is like, if you've ended up in a position where you're carrying an unfair amount of the mental load and you're exhausted and burnt out and resentful and frustrated, chances are it's not your fault. So I really want I want people to take that away because I think that guilt and that blame that we place on ourselves can really be crushing. And I don't want people to have that. And I also want people to feel like they have the power to change things. I really do believe that you have options, you have the ability to change these dynamics, you have the ability to articulate and and really have meaningful conversations with people, even if it's not your partner, if it's friend. You know, like we we just have the ability to change this. I really do believe that. And I think women are so incredibly powerful. And whether that that power comes from access to to money or if it comes from access to time, right? And just like all the things. I think I want women to yeah, know that they have the power to change this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I I want the same thing. And then actually, last but not least, what does rich mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Rich to me really means rich in all facets of life. Like I really want to achieve, I I know people hate the word balance, but I really do want to have a balance of, you know, having an amazing career, having access to money, having time with my kids, having time with my partner, having time with my friends. Like I really, really value relationships. Like I really do. Like I just have a really good time with people. I just want to be with people all the time. And so for me, it's like creating a life where I can do that in a meaningful way, where I can spend the time with the people that I want to spend time with and have the ability to do that in a way that feels really good. Um, and I think access to, you know, starting my own business, having access to money in a way that I didn't before has enabled me to create a different life where I can go for a walk at noon with my best friends and still have a really meaningful career and I can pick my kids up from the bus and still make great money. You know, like I that's rich to me is being able to live the life that I want to live while still having this really meaningful career and access to wealth that um I don't think I could have had if I hadn't um kind of taken control of my life in that way.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Thank you. I love that. I I think balance is should not be a taboo word. I don't want to take away from your I hear you. I don't know. I agree. I hate that. It's like I can't have it all, but I can't have balance. I'm so confused. I'm just saying, yeah, you could have nothing.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

You can have one thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah, it's so confusing. Well, thank you so much, Paige, for being here. I hope that every I'm sure that everyone enjoyed this conversation. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

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